Tag: great tribulation

Who Are the Elders?

They only show up in a few spots in the Bible, but their veiled identity is intriguing. In case you don’t know to whom I am referring, here is one spot:

 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
    and by your will they existed and were created.”

Revelation 4:10-11 (ESV)

All of the references to this group come from Revelation. They talk but they are never explained as to who they are. Since they are not identified in Isaiah’s vision of God’s throne room, it is possible that they have been added since then. Perhaps they are 24 chosen representatives of the Old Testament righteous. The number 24 seems significant since that is twice the number of the tribes of Israel. This could be 12 from Israel and 12 from the nations.

One significant reference to Elders among the tribes of Israel is at Mt. Sinai. Here the number is not 12 or 24, but 70. These men are allowed to go up the mountain and to “see God”. Their experience ends up with an explanation of what was under God’s feet. It would seem that these men didn’t get the best view and are shielded from God by some type of floor. It is unlikely that there is connection between these two groups.

Another possibility for the 24 is a representative for each of the twelve tribes plus the 12 Apostles. This would include either Paul or Matthias in replacement of Judas, but it should also include John who is observing the group. To this I can’t say “no”, but I am not inclined to say, “yes”.

The elders do not permanently remain in a circle formation around God. In Revelation 7, one comes to speak to John:

 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,… Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

Revelation 7:11,13-14 (ESV)

First, this Elder doesn’t include himself as someone who has come out of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation may be a specific time period or event during which persecution is or was intense. I would also entertain the possibility that the Great Tribulation is how the inhabitants of Heaven refer to Earth. In that case, the Elder would not have been an inhabitant of Earth. He is also not identified as something other than a human, though that does not absolutely rule out some type of angel.

Why would we be told about these beings without an explanation of who they are? Even the Cherubim are given a brief explanation. What is their function? Do they only praise God from the front row? All we see are the Elders in action within the throne room of God. Their function within the room is connected to worship.

Since Revelation is an apocalyptic vision, it is possible that the elders are symbolic. Their likely symbolism is that they are the Church. So if that is the case, we circle the throne of God, we throw down our crowns of glory and give praise to God. We are enthroned and given some measure of authority. That would be my first choice if not for the conversation in Revelation 7.

I would still say that these are 24 actual individuals chosen to represent the church as a whole. The message they silently give is that we, as members of the church, are given close access to God in Heaven. We will no longer be separated by a floor, vision, cloud, curtain or anything else that necessarily isolated us from direct contact with God.

An Insight into Heaven

I am fascinated by those who were chosen as prophets. They tell us what they have received from God, but rarely give any insight into how they received it. As a pastor I have a “semi-prophetic” role. I don’t produce a sermon out of brute biblical research. I do experience ideas that are true to the text or texts, and they seem to come so easily. Too easily for me. It is a spiritual gift. No visions. No voices. No out-of-body experiences. What happened to John as he received Revelations? Was it a vision or a field trip?

This week is All Saints Sunday. It is a day to remember those who have gone before us, and a day to think about what comes next after we die. The text I am using is Revelation 7:9-17. It makes you think. Was it a trip or a vision? Where is this? When is this? There are clues. Here is the first part:

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelations 7:9-14 (ESV)

I believe that it is very possible for God to take us anywhere in Creation, even forward or backward in time. That said, I believe that other visions of God’s throne room in Heaven, Isaiah 6 and Daniel 7 for example, are visions not trips. The reason is that Jesus said no one has gone into Heaven, among humans to that date, except Him (John 1:13). The reason, I believe, is that we could not tolerate it prior to our sin being atoned for by Jesus. John wouldn’t have that restriction. Still, the last line quoted above gives away that this is a vision.

Jesus’ blood cleanses souls not robes. The robes are symbolic of the human soul. Therefore, I think it likely that this is vision. Being a vision doesn’t make it unreal or just a dense metaphor of some sort. It is much like being there. Still, it is an input straight to his mind or right before his eyes.

Where is there? It could be Heaven, but it could be the New Earth. God’s throne room is currently in Heaven, but will move to the New Earth post-Judgement Day. There are no telltale clues in the text. The context places this in Heaven because it is in the midst of the opening of the seven seals. John’s Revelation moves across the breadth of the Earth’s remaining time several times. But this is in the midst of it. Judgment Day happens on the next page with the seventh seal and time resets.

When is it? Before Judgment Day, to be sure, but is it at John’s time? The clue is who is seen. John sees millions of people. By John’s date there would be the Old Testament righteous and those converted since Jesus (maybe 55 years), that might be a big number. But John notes that there are people from every tribe and nation. That wouldn’t be true then and not yet even. This is future, just before God wraps things up. The people are also described as “those who have come out the great tribulation”. It doesn’t say that they were martyrs as Revelation 6 and 20 note. So I don’t see that Heaven is only for those martyred. The great tribulation could be a period of time just before Judgement Day when persecution is very high, but it could also be a reference to every period and place in this life. Living under the curse and with sin and Satan is tough. Relatively speaking this world stinks.

The last part is exciting:

15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
    and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
    the sun shall not strike them,
    nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
    and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 7:15-17 (ESV)

At first blush, maybe serving God in His temple “day and night” doesn’t sound exciting. It is hard to conceptualize what it will be like to see God and what exactly we will do but expect it to be very exciting and a type of duty that you will covet. Also, don’t think that this is your whole existence.

The end of 15 and all of 16 describe a curse-free existence. All the things that make life now uncomfortable and frustrating will be gone. That is true for the redeemed after Judgment Day as well. In fact the similarities between Heaven and the New Earth lead some people to conflate them. They are two distinct things.

Finally, verse 17 is an intriguing one. Jesus, the Lamb “in the midst of the throne” will be their shepherd. Maybe we are thinking about the throne as just a large chair. It could be a whole world, or even a whole universe parallel to this one. We will be will Jesus doing many things beyond our comprehension. And there will be no reason to grieve and we will have a reconciled memory of what we went through here.

When you consider even the little that we know about Heaven from this text. It is hard to imagine that there could be more. But God plans more. The resurrection of our earthly bodies and a new Heaven and Earth.

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